>> I'm Dr.

Benjamin F. Chavis Jr., and this is "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Anti-Semitism always begins with the Jewish people, but it never ends with the Jewish people.

And in a sense, I would say anti-Semitism is an early warning system for the health of our human decency and human rights in society.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo, the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

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>> We're very honored to have Dr.

Charles Asher Small, director of the Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm really honored to be here, and thank you for inviting me.

>> So, Charles, I always begin with the social setting.

Where were you born?

>> I was born in Montreal, in Canada.

>> In Canada?

>> Yeah.

>> Were your parents Tell me something about what did your parents do?

>> My parents were very active in the Jewish community in Montreal.

My mother was a feminist.

She helped to organize.

In 1975 was the Year of the Woman, the UN Year of the Woman.

So she was very engaged in feminist politics.

And also growing up in Montreal, there was a strong Jewish community, a small but strong community.

And we were sort of the quintessential others.

And we were between the Anglo-Saxon, the people of British origin, and the French Canadians.

And there was kind of anti-Semitism.

So our community was very engaged, and my parents were involved in the community, as were my grandparents and even my great-grandparents.

>> So you come from an activist family?

>> Absolutely.

>> And you witnessed what you understood to be anti-Semitism at an early age?

>> Definitely.

So in Montreal, the Jewish community, we call it institutional completeness.

We had to create our own institutions because we weren't allowed to enter into the mainstream institutions of higher education and even healthcare.

So in Montreal, for example, the community built the Jewish General Hospital because Jewish patients weren't allowed to go to Catholic and Protestant hospitals.

Jewish doctors weren't allowed to be trained or even touch Christians.

>> This is Canada?

>> This is Canada.

discrimination against Jews?

>> There was, there was.

Famously -- we were speaking earlier -- there was a book by Irving Abella, a great historian and professor, who wrote a book called "None Is Too Many."

And that's what the Minister of Immigration said when they asked him how many Jewish refugees would they take during the Holocaust.

His response was "none is too many."

When refugees would come to Canada from the Holocaust, the Canadian government often sent the refugees back on ships to Germany to their ultimate demise.

>> Based on your life journey, I can see how you've become the founder and the director of Global Antisemitism and Policy.

Tell us about ISGAP.

>> So, we started ISGAP in 2003, and I had the great honor of starting it with Professor Elie Wiesel.

Elie Wiesel, as many people -- >> Very well-known.

>> Yeah, yeah.

So he was a Holocaust survivor and wrote memoirs about his experience during the Holocaust and became one of the best-known witnesses to the Holocaust.

He was also a professor of ethics and Jewish thought and really just a very special man.

In 2003, Kofi Annan and Elie Wiesel created a very big conference at the UN in New York.

And at this conference, there was a small group of professors who were beginning to see the re-emergence of of anti-Semitism, and we created ISGAP from that meeting, and we established it in the United States and then later in Canada, the UK, Italy, and Israel.

>> You are a scholar and academic.

Can you define for our audience -- There's a lot of debate about what is anti-Semitism?

>> Just to be focused, it's hatred against Jewish people.

Anti-Semitism is actually a problematic concept for many reasons from a scholarly perspective.

There's a lot of contradictions in the concept.

But it was a term coined by Wilhelm Maar, who was a Nazi ideologue in the 1870s.

He played a key role in Nazi ideology, and he coined the phrase of anti-Semitism.

And he was proud to be an anti-Semite, proud to be somebody who hated Jews, whose goal was to remove Jewish people from society.

>> So Nazism just didn't start with Hitler?

>> No.

>> It had some forerunners?

>> Correct.

>> What is the status of global anti-Semitism?

>> So, I think steadily over the years, certainly since the -- I would say even the Durban conference in South Africa, which was supposed to be a conference about racism.

Really turned into a, I'd say, an orgy of hatred against the Jewish people and Israel.

Yes.

>> But what -- How can one be against racism and not be against anti-Semitism?

>> That is a... >> That's a contradiction.

>> Absolutely.

And this contradiction, I think, is dangerously accelerating in society.

And this sort of -- It's not only a contradiction, but this irrational hatred of Jewish people today in the United States, in our college campuses, in the media of record is deeply alarming.

And I think after October the 7th, as everybody knows, October the 7th, there was a pogrom that took place.

Hamas attacked Jewish civilians in Israel.

Hamas is the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a reactionary social movement that was started in Egypt 100 years ago.

And it really takes a perversion of Islam, a very narrow, reactionary form of Islam, and fuses it with genocidal anti-Semitism that came out of Germany and Europe 100 years ago, and even Nazism.

The Muslim Brotherhood took the protocols of the Elders of Zion, the lies and forged documents that led to anti-Semitism in Europe that removed Jews from their places of employment, took them out of their homes, placed them in ghettos, and ultimately led to the Final Solution.

Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood basically has -- They've plagiarized these lies and used it as a foundational element of their ideology and their political mission.

And what we saw on October the 7th goes back for many decades.

It's a Nazi-inspired, European anti-Semitic-inspired movement that literally calls for exterminating not only Israelis, but Jewish people around the world.

And if this was not tragic enough, it's starting to get some traction on American campuses at some of the best universities in the United States and Canada and the Western world.

So there's really a miseducation of some of our future leaders at our best universities that's deeply alarming.

>> You know, you talk about the miseducation, so how can we have education about what anti-Semitism is to try to stop what is going on in terms of the rise of anti-Semitism in America and throughout the world?

>> When it comes to issues of racism and sexism in the United States and other Western democratic countries, there's very serious issues that remain today on issues pertaining to racism, the marginalization of communities when it comes to sexism.

There's still -- There's been progress on many issues in the past several decades.

But there's still issues of sexism and the marginalization of women in various parts of our society, and African-Americans and other minorities in the United States.

But if you get a good liberal education in the United States, you get some sort of knowledge how racism is structured into our society, that there's a history of slavery, there's a history of Jim Crow, that if you look at -- >> Although there's a tendency now to try to take education in America, to make it not focus on racism and not focus on the history of racial discrimination, but go ahead and make your point.

>> Absolutely, so I think that the re-emergence of anti-Semitism, Elie Wiesel always taught that anti-Semitism is not a parochial problem for the Jewish people or for Israelis, that once -- Anti-Semitism always begins with the Jewish people, but it never ends with the Jewish people.

And in a sense, I would say anti-Semitism is an early warning system for the health of our human decency and human rights in society, and that once anti-Semitism begins to affect our society, it knows no bounds and starts to attack other people, especially marginalized people.

So we are seeing a very sharp, violent rise in anti-Semitism.

But we're also beginning to see the rise of xenophobia, the re-emergence of racism, and pushing back civil rights legislation and other issues.

So I think this is an early warning system that doesn't only affect Jewish people, it affects all people.

And I think in a sense, if you get a good liberal education, you have some understanding of why cities in the United States are segregated, why certain sectors of our economy -- You have African-American people that are underrepresented, and there's marginalization.

You have a good understanding of what's happening, and we can begin to see some progress.

Although, you know, in every generation, we have to struggle to make sure our democratic principles remain intact.

But when it comes to the study of anti-Semitism, we're illiterate.

We are not fluent in the topic.

We don't know how to identify Jewish people.

We don't know how to identify anti-Semitism.

We don't understand the history and the importance of anti-Semitism in Western civilization at the levels of theology, of social science, of philosophy, and how it's deeply rooted in Western civilization and in the United States of America.

We do not have courses on contemporary anti-Semitism.

There are courses on the Holocaust.

But tragically, as we can see, anti-Semitism has not ended, you know, from the time of the Holocaust.

It's now part of our society.

It's in our classrooms, it's on our campus, and it's on our streets.

And as a society, we don't understand what's hitting us.

>> You've described the problem.

One of the things I want to talk to you about was some possible solutions to the rise of anti-Semitism in America broadly, but particularly now colleges and universities.

But I have a prior question.

There used to be an affirmation of the historic relationship between Blacks and Jews in America.

Well, we don't hear much about that today.

Shouldn't we learn from our history rather than have history repeat itself?

>> Absolutely.

And we know, you know, from you and for what you stand for over your lifetime of struggling for civil rights and human dignity and your engagement on the issues of anti-Semitism, there's other leaders in the African-American community, Martin Luther King and others have taken such strong, principled perspectives on anti-Semitism.

And this is encouraging.

And we know historically, Jewish people have played a role in the civil rights movement.

They played a role in the anti-apartheid movement, and they did so because they were victims of racism itself.

And this is something that is less and less understood in the United States, particularly with young people.

And one of the problems with anti-Semitism or any form of hatred is that the oppressor, the other, defines the victim and -- >> Say that again.

It's very profound.

>> The oppressor will define the victim.

And the Jewish people are having a difficult time today in the United States of America, of all countries, to define themselves.

And this is a basic -- A basic expression of power is the capacity to define who you are, how we identify ourselves, and how to be perceived in society.

We are being put in a very dangerous box by some of the greatest intellectuals in the media of record in the United States of America.

And if we take a step back, the Jewish people theologically, from the great philosophers of enlightenment in Europe, from the scholars of eugenics and biology, define the Jewish people as not white.

And not only we were considered not white, we were considered a threat to the purity of the white Aryan race and nation, and that the Jews had to be eliminated to save the purity of the white people and the Aryan Nation.

And this racist anti-Semitism led and culminated in the Holocaust.

And this is what the Nazis, Hitler, and their ideologues were preaching.

So more than 6 million Jewish people were systematically removed from society, put into ghettos, put into crematoriums and concentration camps.

Over 6 million people exterminated because they were not white.

And this is a setup for a very dangerous part of anti-Semitism.

This will lead to -- really, to bloodshed and to very dangerous things for the Jewish people, the Jewish community.

But basically, I would say for the very foundational elements of democratic principles in the United States.

>> When I was in the civil rights movement, I witnessed Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel work with the Reverend Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr.

and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and was this close alliance between Blacks and Jews in America.

And one of the things I want you to comment on, is there an opportunity to restore, rebuild, reaffirm that historic relationship?

>> Many Jewish people were connected to the civil rights movement, and they were connected to the civil rights movement because they themselves or their parents experienced firsthand racist Jew hatred and fascism and Nazism.

And when they arrived to the United States, if they were fortunate to survive and make it to the United States, and they show up on the shores of America and they see segregation, they see separate entrances and separate water fountains and African-Americans can't go to certain universities or can't go to certain hospitals.

This wasn't a front.

This resonated and was similar to their experience.

And, you know, on a -- I don't want to sound egotistical, but I'll bring my story into this.

I remember -- I was fortunate to become part of the anti-apartheid movement.

I became the chairman or the chair -- I became the chairperson of the African National Congress Solidarity Committee.

>> Really?

Oh, great.

>> And I -- >> The ANC.

>> The ANC, and I was part of the struggle to end the apartheid system in South Africa.

And I was invited by the ANC to go to South Africa.

And I remember sitting on an airplane in Amsterdam on my way to help try to put an end to a society that was premised on the same racism and fascism as Nazi Germany.

And I was sitting on a plane on my way to Johannesburg, listening to the pilot make announcements in German.

And I was sitting there thinking how fortunate.

I'm an accident.

If the Nazis had their way -- The Nazis, who also informed the same system in South Africa, had their way, I would not be sitting on that plane because my grandparents would not have survived, and I was carrying on the struggle that affected my family to South Africa.

And I think many Jewish people in the United States and around the world have that affinity because we've experienced sim-- We've had different experiences, but we have common -- common experiences.

And I think those commonalities help to forge connections.

And in addition, I think on a religious level, I think in the African-American community, which -- and the African-American church, which you know infinitely better than me, there are connections from the Old Testament and the Torah and the spirituals and -- >> The Judeo-Christian tradition.

>> Correct.

>> So ISGAP is interdisciplinary?

>> Correct.

>> But it's also multiracial.

>> Absolutely.

>> Multicultural.

>> Absolutely.

>> Which brings me to this fundamental question.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam.

Three major religions say Abraham is the father.

So how is it that Jews, Christians, and Muslims find some theological, some misinformed theological reason to kill each other?

>> So I think for too long leaders and "pseudo intellectuals" in the West have embraced the most radical representatives of Islam as the "authentic" Muslims in our Western societies.

And I think that's been a tragic error.

I'm happy to say, on a positive note, there are Muslims throughout the world and in the Middle East that realize the threat of these reactionary social movements that hate the other, who hate Jews and want to subjugate women and murder gay people and don't acknowledge the rights of other minorities, that there are moderate Muslims that want to oppose this perversion of their religion and their culture.

We work with Muslim intellectuals and policymakers throughout the world.

We've done wonderful work in the United Arab Emirates, in the UAE, where there's an embrace of the Abrahamic faiths and a recognition and respect of Christianity and Judaism.

I had an amazing -- >> You're saying that in the UAE that there is not only cooperation, but reaffirmation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?

>> Absolutely.

>> In a very formal, open way?

>> In a very open way.

And I go there as a Jewish person.

I'm also an Israeli citizen.

And the reaction was not just kindness, but a warm embrace.

I also had the privilege of going to Saudi Arabia several times.

The last time I went, which was about two months before October the 7th, I went with a small delegation from Cambridge University that included several Jewish people, myself included, and we were taken to Medina.

Medina was, for many years, closed off to non-Muslims.

We were allowed to go there, and not only were we allowed to go there, we were given a formal tour and visit of "Jewish Medina."

So you had Saudi people showing us where Jewish families worked with the Prophet Muhammad.

We planted trees in the orchard that were once owned by a Jewish family.

We were taken to see the graves of Jewish people in Medina.

And it blew my mind.

And then if you look at the map and this is something that you kind of know, but you're not conscious of.

I was sitting in Medina and I realized, you know, that the light and the smell and the earth and the arid land reminded me of Jerusalem.

And if you look at the map, it's just up the road.

And of course, our cultures and our people are so intertwined historically, demographically and certainly also religiously.

And I think -- I believe that there's a lot of hope for our future, that there are Muslims and Jews and Christians really reaching out to each other.

And I hope and I think we're on the cusp of a new age.

I think there'll be normalization with Israel and an embrace of the Abrahamic faiths, faiths that will not only create a profound rapprochement and develop the region with respect, and that will have implications economically and strategically and scientifically but will also push at bay the reactionary forces that are impostors, that they use their religion to harm other people.

And I think -- I'm hopeful.

>> Well, I think your hopefulness hopefully spreads, particularly in this climate that we're in.

I wanted to ask you.

I don't think anyone is born an anti-Semite.

I don't think anybody is born a racist.

I don't think anybody is born a hater.

What is ISGAP's strategy to try to mitigate the indoctrination of young people with these hateful stereotypes?

>> Young Jewish people in the United States are experiencing anti-Semitism in a way that's much more intense and much more debilitating than Jewish people who are older.

And there was a recent study that found that over 80% of American Jews think that another Holocaust is possible, that the level of anti-Semitism socially, politically, and even physically, that's being brought upon our community in the United States is really, I would say, a national strategic threat.

And I think what's also important to understand is that the Muslim Brotherhood -- and these were documents found by the FBI and the Swiss security police 40 years ago.

Their goal was to move Israel away from the United States, to isolate it politically and economically, to weaken it, to destroy it, to destroy the "little Satan," and then to use anti-Semitism to weaken and fragment the United States of America, the "big Satan."

And if you take a step back, this was their strategic goals stated 40 years ago.

And they're making tremendous progress.

And I think at ISGAP, what we're trying to do through high-quality, serious scholarship is to basically ring a warning, an alarm bell, that there's something rotten in the United States that needs to be addressed, and this is affecting young people.

It's affecting the Jewish community.

But as Elie Wiesel always taught, it may begin with the Jewish people, but this anti-democratic disease is beginning to permeate our most sensitive and important institutions, i.e.

education, and we need to create awareness and put an end to it.

>> Today, what gives you your greatest hope for the future?

>> Meeting people like you is one.

I mean that sincerely.

It's been an honor to meet you and I -- It's incredible to be able to work with you.

And my greatest hope is meeting young people who are smart and educated and committed to not only fighting anti-Semitism, but fighting hatred and racism and standing up for renewing our basic democratic principles and human rights.

>> Dr.

Charles Small, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

I'm really honored.

Thank you.

>> God bless.

>> Thanks.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo, the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- Dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities, Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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